AVEN - Aseksueel Voorlichtings- en Educatie Netwerk

Forum => A-Dutch Posts => Topic gestart door: Isaac op augustus 21, 2009, 04:18:43 PM

Titel: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Isaac op augustus 21, 2009, 04:18:43 PM
I will study this fall semester in RUG and I wanted to know how ace-tolerant the campus and the town are.
Is it reasonable to be out-and-proud from the beginning, or is it preferable to fly under the radar?
Are there regular asexy meetups there or near?
There's a GSA there, would it be interesting to contact them, or it could be worse?
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Sismo op augustus 21, 2009, 10:47:27 PM
I'm afraid I don't understand your questions....
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Isaac op augustus 22, 2009, 01:44:01 AM
The Netherlands is considered a very open-minded and tolerant country, but I don't know if it's true and if it holds for something so unknown as asexuality. By default I would fly under the radar since it's the easiest and safest. If someone ask me why I'm single, I'm single, period. If they proposed me looking for a partner, I'm not interested, period. If they insisted, it's invasion of privacy, period. Not entering the bottom of the matter. It's what I did before I knew what asexuality is. I wanted to know if studying in the NL may be a good opportunity to break thru this and being out-and-proud since the very first day. Does this attitude bring problems there?

I've only attended one asexy meetup in Spain, the only that has been, and I wanted to attend more. Are there regular meetups in Northern NL? Or near there? Would I be welcome?

I've discovered that there's an LGTB association (http://www.ganymedes-lgbt.nl/) in the campus which defined itself as "a kind of like a gay-straight alliance". It could be a priori a good idea to contact them, but I know the strong words (http://jatgab.blogspot.com/2009/02/asexuals-united-give-me-break.html) that some gay people have against asexual. It depends on how open-minded the Dutch are.
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Sismo op augustus 22, 2009, 11:54:42 AM
CiteerThe Netherlands is considered a very open-minded and tolerant country, but I don't know if it's true and if it holds for something so unknown as asexuality. By default I would fly under the radar since it's the easiest and safest. If someone ask me why I'm single, I'm single, period. If they proposed me looking for a partner, I'm not interested, period. If they insisted, it's invasion of privacy, period. Not entering the bottom of the matter. It's what I did before I knew what asexuality is. I wanted to know if studying in the NL may be a good opportunity to break thru this and being out-and-proud since the very first day. Does this attitude bring problems there?
The major problem that you'll probably meet, is that people don't believe you if you tell them you don't like sex. Tell you that you just didn't meet the right woman/man. I never heard of any bigger problems than that.
CiteerI've only attended one asexy meetup in Spain, the only that has been, and I wanted to attend more. Are there regular meetups in Northern NL? Or near there? Would I be welcome?
We did have some meetings, but as far as I know, there's no meeting planned till now. The meetings we had, were of a small group of active members of this forum.
CiteerI've discovered that there's an LGTB association in the campus which defined itself as "a kind of like a gay-straight alliance". It could be a priori a good idea to contact them, but I know the strong words that some gay people have against asexual. It depends on how open-minded the Dutch are.
As far as I can read, it's an organisation for gay people, the only thing we have in common, is that we're not like the most. I would say: try! In worst case, they don't believe you and maybe think you're a bit strange.

P.S. sorry for my dutchy English (a long time ago I had to write in English....)
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Isaac op augustus 22, 2009, 01:24:39 PM
Thanks. I found no mistake in your English, but mine is probably worse. I'll try in September if it's enough for living in the NL.
If the worst responses may be right-person and disbelieving ones, it's not the ideal scenario, but it improves the situation. Here is a list of most common responses (http://asexystuff.blogspot.com/2009/08/blog-summary.html) and these two are among the less offensive. And there are well-known responses most of us have found.
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Ciara op augustus 26, 2009, 10:23:34 AM
In general, I'd say we're pretty open minded. It all depends on the person really. Ones in a "gay" society will most likely be more open because they faced the same kind of prejudice sort a speak. Although I don't believe you should be shouting it off rooftops you might not get a lot of real negative responses if you simple answer the question truthfully. Again, it depends on the person. You can have firiendly people that have very stict ideas about how love and sex should be where as the more closed person turns out to be very open minded once you get him or her to talk.

Some people will laugh, say you haven't met the right person, others will think you're crazy (how can you Not like sex??) others will simply not care. It might be something they gossip about when you're not around, then again they might never think of it again. Here, almost anything is possible. People and their opinions are very diverse, so you can expect diverse reactions.

By the way, if they ask why you're single, the answser "I haven't met the right person yet" would be the truth, without going into any personal details. Although in general we are quite open minded, most do not find it necessary to just let anyone and everyone know about everything personal, that's for friends only.

As for Northen NL, it's not a very good place for meetings. Everything happens in the south, Utrecht mostly. I find that frustrating, but there's not much you can do. People from the south (the ones I know that is) refuse to travel north for a meeting, so mostly it just doesn't happen. But íf you'd really like one maybe we can setup a Northen NL AVEN meeting ^_^

Anyways, Goodluck, and have fun!!!
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Sismo op augustus 26, 2009, 11:17:12 AM
CiteerPeople from the south (the ones I know that is) refuse to travel north for a meeting

??? Most of the time, a meeting is organized somewhere in the middle of The Netherlands and Belgium together. I don't think anyone has ever refused to go North! (maybe someone I don't know...?  :-\ )
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Isaac op augustus 26, 2009, 05:26:31 PM
Thanks for the replies. Ans as for what Ciara sais, I wanted to know if it's true Descartes' claim that the Dutch are people more careful of their own affairs than curious about those of others, where one is enabled to live as solitary and retired as in the midst of the most remote deserts without being deprived of any of the amenities of modern urban life. (Discours de la méthode, ending of part 3)

With respect to Utrech, I've observed that it's a fine railway hub, so it's a good place for Dutch meetups. Planning trips from/to airports, I've found that the North is very isolated and a connection in Utrech region is a need. Probably the negative of people of Holland or Utrech to coming to the North is tacit rather than explicit. I've heard no negative to a Spanish national meetup outside Madrid from people from Madrid, but it's tacitly discarded. (And I'm in the same situation in Spain with respect to Madrid as in the NL to Utrech.)

It could be a good idea to do regional meetings. I've proposed it in Spanish AVEN, but each Spanish region has the size as the whole NL.
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Ciara op augustus 28, 2009, 03:18:36 PM
Citaat van: Sismo op augustus 26, 2009, 11:17:12 AM
CiteerPeople from the south (the ones I know that is) refuse to travel north for a meeting

??? Most of the time, a meeting is organized somewhere in the middle of The Netherlands and Belgium together. I don't think anyone has ever refused to go North! (maybe someone I don't know...?  :-\ )

wasn't about anyone from here, but I've seen it happen often enough to piss me off. So yeah, probably folks you don't know. But since we are discussing it, maybe others are up for a Northen meet?
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Isaac op september 04, 2009, 07:05:49 PM
I'm already in the NL, and my impression is very negative. I'm very disappointed with the mythical open-mind-ness of the Dutch. I haven't had to deal with any issue about sexuality, but about the very basics of living and surviving. The only signs of tolerance I've seen are a proud lesbian couple in my first walk (in Barcelona I see a proud gay couple in my first walk) and that I've seen rainbow flags in housesat a height accessible by homophobic vandalism. In Spain sensible flags (like rainbow, but also the national flag and many regional flags) are put either high enough to be inaccessible from the outside or behind the glass of a window.
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Jovi_Hobbes op september 04, 2009, 07:29:03 PM
Isn't it a bit soon to draw any conclusions? Here in the Netherlands there are all kinds of people just as in any other coutnry. There are open-minded people and people who aren't.

To answer your question about Descartes: a typically Dutch motto is: just act normal, that's weird enough. Generally, Dutch people let other people be, people are allowed to do watherver they want as long as they don't bother anyone. The downside of this is that this may come across as if people are not interested in you. That is not necessarily true, but if you really want to get in touch with people you have to be prepared to take the first step.
But once again, there are all kinds of people and they all act and react differently. The things you've heard and read are stereotypes. Of course there is some truth in it, but don't expect everyone you meet to be open-minded about everything you throw at them. Generally speaking, Dutch people might be slightly more open minded than people from other coutnries, but this also depends on the region of the country. Amsterdam is way more open-minded than certain small villages.

I hope you will enjoy your time here. What are you studying?
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Isaac op september 04, 2009, 08:43:33 PM
Yes, Hobbes, it's too soon to draw a conclusion, but I compare it with another countries I've visited and the Dutch don't realize that many of their singularities are not universal, despite being a small country which receives lots of visitors. I hope to change my opinion. For me it's not a problem that people act if they were not interested in me, but a blessing. My complaint is that they impose their way of living in the most subtle and effective way: they allow you to do but make it materially impossible. And I find everything very ill signalized, and this creates the need to ask people. And it seem that they have never travel, since only the foreigners have understood what arriving with a suitcase and a backpack means, neither people whose task is welcoming newcomers. And I've avoided many of the major issues by reading blogs written by Spaniards in the NL.
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Isaac op september 04, 2009, 08:55:18 PM
And I'm finishing a PhD, and my dorm-mates a also graduate students from outside the NL, so they are people with much in common with me.
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Ciara op september 05, 2009, 02:12:45 PM
Sounds very negative. From what I've experienced we don't impose, much the opposite. We travel alot, but we are used to bikes, so we travel light. Only when traveling far does one have big suitcases and such.

If you want help from the Dutch, in general, you're gonna have to ask. Most people will be happy to help, but will never offer to do as such. Don't ask me why, we find that intrusive or something, but mostly we don't mind helping at all when some one askes. 

As to bikes, the cheapest way is an online p2p sort of thing called marktplaats. If you want to sell it back, stores could be nice, but if you buy it of a student you have a bigger chance of getting the same amount of money for it by selling it to yet another student when you leave.
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Isaac op september 05, 2009, 03:54:06 PM
When I said "arriving with a suitcase and a backpack" I meant with these as your only personal belongings, not as a big luggage. In fact, they were very understanding in this point; they were like, "do you come from Schiphol? OK".

Everybody I've found seem to think that everybody comes with a bike between their legs. In some places there's no sidewalk, but only bikelane.

I hate when people offer unrequested help, thus this Dutch trait is a blessing, but I hate more that you need to ask something that should be clear in signs. I've had bad experiences asking Dutch people I've met, I felt like the man in the balloon of a classic joke. He was lost, descended and asked a fellow in the land "may you tell me where I am?" and the land guy asked "you're in a balloon." Correct, known and unhelpful.

And the Dutch impose their habits, specially times, when you find materially impossible to do what you need in another time. For instance, lunch time and closing time of stores. There are strict peoples with strict rules which you are anyway forced to follow. Among the Spaniards is well-considered to innovate ways for bypassing rules; we call it picaresca. I've observed that the Dutch gives you theoretically much freedom, but materially your choices are fewer than in the other systems.
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Ciara op september 08, 2009, 04:25:13 PM
It's true, opening times and such are quite strict, but for us it's a way of knowing what you're up against. I agree that some things (like goverments, post offices, that sort of thing) should be open longer, or in the evening more often, because everyones work hours seem to be the same, so if you have important things to do you have take some time off. I find that anoying, but not much you can do. On the other hand I never have to ask myself if a shop will be open or not, the times are the same everywhere (well, almost anyways).

The self-explainatory answers is something many Dutch people consider the answer to you question, and technically, it is. Don't ask where you are, ask how you should get where you want to go. If they know, they'll most likely tell you. I mean, it could be worse, they could just tell you you're "here" :P

As a pedestrian, just take your spot on the road. If you look firm enough, people will make room for you. Might seem scary, it sometimes is, but as a pedestrain you just have to take your right to use the road sometimes. I lived in Rome for six months, most cars didn't stop at the Zebra's unless someone was actually crosing it, if you stood on the sidewalk waiting you could be there for quite some time. It's not that bad here (I think, by comparison) but the technique works for me. Or dress up like a goth with long leather jackes and spikes, people will actually move out of your way in that case :P (also, from experience, here in leeuwarden, and I'm just a small girl, but it seemed other thought me scary ^_^)
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Isaac op september 09, 2009, 08:26:28 PM
Thank for the compression and for your replies. I thought I had been too offensive unto the Dutch collectively. Notice that the Spaniards are the first who criticize Spain, and thus the rule "not unto the others what you would not like for you" doesn't applies here.

I've just gotten a bike, and this has helped me a lot. I'm now something, nobody but something at least. And I can see how the pedestrians are surprised that I stop to allow them cross in no-zebra zones, but I see that it's only me who do this, and the cars of course.

In order to avoid the man-in-balloon effect, I downloaded the map of the town into my mobile. This helps a lot when streets are properly labeled (the only thing properly labeled I've seen here) and it makes useful some replies otherwise useless. But when I told the man-in-balloon joke I was not so literal, but in a broad meaning.

A couple of practical questions. When the road and its bike lanes continues but the sidewalk finish, which lane I'm supposed to walk by the left margin? Is a case I had never found before. I know that pedestrians and riders have priority over the traffic, but between pedestrians and riders? And, in a crossing with no explicit priorization, which side have preference over me? According to the Spanish traffic code, you must yield to your right hand side, unless you were entering a roundabout or a expressway. Is the same in the NL? I felt as if I were yielding wrongly, but I don't expect it to be different but in the UK.

If you've been in Rome, Ciara, you may have an idea of how Mediterranean people are. But about the traffic, it's not a good reference, since every Spaniard who visit Rome complaints about the way Italians drive. Spaniards are more civilized, but the street are still designed for the cars and the non-official law of the heaviest vehicle is still ruling.
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Ciara op september 10, 2009, 09:00:35 AM
The traffic here is as following: everything going straight on the same road has prio, on roads with no signals everything from the right has prio, so seems like it's the same like in Spain. Pedestrians only have prio when the sidewalk continues over the road, at zebra's. or when there's other sorts of signaling. When forced to walk on the road, keep to the left hand side, so you'll be able to see what's coming, and walk on the bike lane (mostly you just stick to the far left side of the road).

The survival of the strongest is something you don't see much here, but I agree that the Italians driving is somewhat.. extreme maybe? Although it was worse in Turkey :p
I'm glad you got a bike and manage to get around better.
Titel: Re: Studying in the NL
Bericht door: Isaac op september 10, 2009, 11:30:08 AM
Thanks, Ciara, and congratulations for your 100 posts.

I should have said "Christian tradition Mediterranean world", since "Islamic tradition Mediterranean world" have a crazy, chaotic and dangerous traffic, at least in Egypt.